tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post4769277509963556406..comments2023-11-11T21:26:46.689+00:00Comments on This Side of Sunday: Barth: Cannibalistic v. Communion-based TheologyJon Couttshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-80967226852160242292011-02-26T02:11:56.853+00:002011-02-26T02:11:56.853+00:00Good pointGood pointTony Tantihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619319927519736211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-11649676081690655492011-02-22T09:20:22.096+00:002011-02-22T09:20:22.096+00:00I aspire to aim for a changed mind, but I just thi...I aspire to aim for a changed mind, but I just think we're better off when we believe there is a truth of some kind that we together should be aiming for - even as we argue vigorously and thoroughly for 'our own' positions. It probably depends on the issue and the situation how long I will defend 'my' position, but at the end of the day if my only goal is to change minds then I have not entered a discussion or even a debate but an address. And we should at least call that for what it is.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-54327992882632073182011-02-21T17:47:56.167+00:002011-02-21T17:47:56.167+00:00What I mean by being heard is simply literally bei...What I mean by being heard is simply literally being heard. Loudest voice or squeakiest wheel... <br /><br />A great example would be the G20 protesters in Toronto who vandalized, they actually managed to distract from their own message and unify people against them who would have otherwise been indifferent and open to a reasonable criticism of the summit. In the end they changed no minds but were certainly heard.<br /><br />And I think if you're passionate about your position on a subject and feel it's defendable then changing minds should always be the goal.<br /><br />I'm not trying to say that you give up on a relationship if you never change the mind of the other person though, and I suppose one should also try to be open to having their mind changed as well.Tony Tantihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619319927519736211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-39497100607345224932011-02-21T10:20:40.839+00:002011-02-21T10:20:40.839+00:00Well played indeed. I love Barth's letter.
I ...Well played indeed. I love Barth's letter.<br /><br />I really don't think there would be a guiding principle in all this. It probably largely depends on one's place, and voice, in the community having the 'conversation'. Even then one could be an outsider and the issue could be important enough to stick one's nose in.<br /><br />I don't think retreat is a great general option though. I think if one retreats one must make it known why that is, and with an olive branch rather than a scolding stick. I really highly value naming the elephant in the room. It is awfully off-putting when people want conversations to be full of sub-text, and certainly one doesn't want to be a witch hunter in every conversation, looking for the sub-text and rooting it out even when it isn't there. You have to let stuff play out a bit and trust people to work it out. Everyone comes off like a hand-grenade tosser at times. Even the best of times. We need a lot of grace to get past that and then have the discussion.<br /><br />But, yeah, naming it when it is there. That seems important.<br /><br />Tanti, I'm not sure it is easier to be heard than to change a mind. I'm not even sure our agenda should be to change minds. I feel like being heard (as in, being understood) is really hard. And an agenda of changing minds can be a real discussion killer. But we're probably thinking of different scenarios. ?Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-6656643065255377942011-02-21T02:07:39.450+00:002011-02-21T02:07:39.450+00:00what a great post, I'm sure Barth's critic...what a great post, I'm sure Barth's critics twisted it to their own predetermined judgments of him but kudos to him for refusing to throw stones back.<br /><br />I go back and forth on the hand grenade tosser analogy, I think the wise thing to do is ignore them and let their grenades lie unexploded. Usually I throw one back though, not sure that helps.<br /><br />It's the old adage, do you want to change minds or be heard? It's easy to do the latter and no hand grenade ever changed a mind.<br /><br />But at what point when someone is hitting you are you allowed to hit back? What I like here is that Barth managed to show he wouldn't put up with the abuse while still ignoring the actual BS claims, well played Karl.Tony Tantihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619319927519736211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-91672371217577964082011-02-17T23:25:57.191+00:002011-02-17T23:25:57.191+00:00I know Jon, that's when it's tough, when y...I know Jon, that's when it's tough, when you can't walk away. But then again there can be real breakthroughs there that might not be had when the luxury makes us miss out on the rewards of patient forbearance and careful conflict. I really think finding a way to name what is going on might be the first way through to a dialogue. Often hand grenade tossing is a feigned confidence. Sometimes it is downright brutish. Either way, maybe best to clear the air sometimes.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-11759475931952764382011-02-17T21:41:02.372+00:002011-02-17T21:41:02.372+00:00Another good one.
Point #1 is particularly helpfu...Another good one.<br /><br />Point #1 is particularly helpful to me. It's not just semantics either - but it's a subtle shift that really gets at the heart of the kind of dialogue I want to have with people in the church. I'll file this one away for sure.<br /><br />On a related point, this post reminds of of another shift I've been trying to implement: dialogue instead of discussion. I like the idea of "speaking through something" with people rather than getting into an exchange that shares its origin with "concussion"<br /><br />I'm still thinking on #3 though. I wish sometimes that I had the luxury of stepping away from the hand grenade tossers. Also, how do you get hand grenade tossers to realize that they're throwing hand grenades? How do you get them to stop? (I guess this kind of reveals that I'm struggling with #4)!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-67594886140016170742011-02-17T20:40:37.864+00:002011-02-17T20:40:37.864+00:00Hear hear.Hear hear.blogos asarkosnoreply@blogger.com