tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post7146778495859333282..comments2023-11-11T21:26:46.689+00:00Comments on This Side of Sunday: Rob Bell, Love Wins, and Karl BarthJon Couttshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-34667365534856296742011-04-25T08:28:05.294+01:002011-04-25T08:28:05.294+01:00.
The question I struggle with is this: is it mor....<br /><br />The question I struggle with is this: is it morally responsible for a creator God to creat beings with free will knowing that the majority of them will not choose to have a relationship with him and so have to be either destroyed or suffer eternally ? If our creator didn’t have a plan to eventually redeem all of mankind then a) he would be as irresponsible as the genetic engineers today and b) as degenerate as Hitler !Tony Claynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-34211842202131845782011-04-02T18:50:51.627+01:002011-04-02T18:50:51.627+01:00Hello, i found your post while searching about Rob...Hello, i found your post while searching about Rob Bell's book. Thanks for an informed approach. I have seen the promo trailer, and also an interview Bell gave on US TV, and I would just say that anyone who has read the Blumhardts, especially Christoph, would not find anything unusual in Bell's comments. And we know who Barth drew upon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-65760782904802495862011-03-18T10:58:01.328+00:002011-03-18T10:58:01.328+00:00Richard: I'm trying to decide how far to go wi...Richard: I'm trying to decide how far to go with Barth on this stuff, and so I'd love to hear you explain what you mean when you say "Christocentricism is a bit of an obfuscation in theology". But if it is too much to get into at the moment with a total stranger I understand. Reservation noted. Thanks for your comment.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-56220095528021921282011-03-17T19:09:59.189+00:002011-03-17T19:09:59.189+00:00Barth - "I don’t believe in universalism, but...Barth - "I don’t believe in universalism, but I do believe in Jesus Christ, the reconciler of all."<br />I dont think using a term like 'universalism' is committed to the kind of dangers that Barth was worried about. If you have to say more then of course more can be said, and the rightful place of Jesus/God/Trinity etc. can be clearly stated. Christocentricism is a bit of an obfuscation in theology I think. <br /><br />Dont get me wrong I do love and respect Barth and his influence in theology. I thank God for his lead in the theology of his day. But I still disagree with it. <br />Probably not possible to respond to Barth fully though especially on a blog comment, he says so much!<br /><br />Richard SmithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-54545797972640615722011-03-09T22:07:25.959+00:002011-03-09T22:07:25.959+00:00Great post. Thanks!
AdamGreat post. Thanks!<br />AdamAdam Couchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13617683663818450549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-60057618214876591552011-03-08T07:06:45.838+00:002011-03-08T07:06:45.838+00:00Great question Brett, and I tend to agree. Justice...Great question Brett, and I tend to agree. Justice has been served. Since this was a post on Barth more than Bell I'll refer to Barth's phrase that "the Judge was judged in our place", taking judgment off our backs and out of our hands.<br /><br />But as I see it there are a couple reasons to think there may be some <i>other</i> manifestation of that justice in the experience of those in resistance to their Creator and Redeemer. The first is that the apostles seemed comfortable indicated that this would be so. This takes the form of warnings, and it picks up on Old Covenant indications of God's wrath for sin and describes it in a number of forms. As anonymous' article mentioned, there is the form of being allowed to live in the reality that one makes for oneself. This jives with the Romans 1 description. However, there is also mention of a white throne judgment, people being accountable for their works, and so on. Until I wrestle through all those texts and convince myself that God in His love for us does not intend for there to be active repercussions for sin, then I'll be unconvinced that there is no justice to "look forward" to.<br /><br />By that I do not mean that punishment is above God, or that it is even desirable. However, we take a cue from the imprecatory Psalms that at times humanity may itself cry out for a transcendent hand of justice to provide such a thing where we are unable, and are quite frankly shocked and appalled and crippled by the evil that manifests itself around us. I think of the genocides of last century, the horrible cases of child abuse we hear stories about, and even the hopeless suck of oppression in either its capitalist or communist forms. <br /><br />Perhaps, indeed, the cross is justice enough. I do think we must trust justice to God. However, there are biblical indications (at least) that the bringing to light of sin will resound into eternity as well.<br /><br />Having said that I'm not insisting that I know what justice has to look like. I am rather attracted to the answer that it has already been meted out on the cross. To me it seems that victim and guilty alike are led by Scripture to trust justice into the hands of God. Interesting to me is the fact that while we talk about hoping for universal redemption, there are also points in history where people have had to hope for some kind of eschatological judgment in order to feel free to forgive offenders in this life and to move on hopefully and openly (entrusting justice to the God who seems more interested in it and able to give it than we are).<br /><br />I'd be happy to hear more on this as well, as I'm sure I'm only giving a partial answer, perhaps even one full of holes.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-3366186533742508172011-03-08T05:29:12.864+00:002011-03-08T05:29:12.864+00:00Did Jesus die for the sins of man? All men? Just...Did Jesus die for the sins of man? All men? Just the believers? I am in the "all men" camp. So, if that is true, and he took on the punishment/judgment for it, then what else is there to punish? Hasn't justice already been served?<br /><br />I am not saying that this means that there will be no judgment, as the Bible talks about that a lot. I am just wondering what you guys think about this. This legal idea of judgment and punishment. People say that sin must be punished with death. Actually, the Bible talks about this. My question is, is this law above God? And if so, why does God have to abide by this law? I mean, he is the creator of all things, but for some reason the Church has put in this "law of sin is death" above God, which, for them, explains way Jesus had to die. Looking at it this way, he died to appease the law, and not because of God's love for us. I think that this view taints the truth and the ever strong love of God come down for us. <br /><br />You know what I'm saying? I'm kind of all over the map. I haven't studied this stuff like some of you may have, so I am curious to hear your thoughts.Brett https://www.blogger.com/profile/10632343649661747519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-57960304711953859492011-03-07T15:30:36.794+00:002011-03-07T15:30:36.794+00:00Thanks for your comments 'anonymous' ... I...Thanks for your comments 'anonymous' ... I found that article really intriguing, and your first comment particularly apropos. The article raised questions for me, but I found the exegetical work helpful. I guess I wonder what God's "justice" looks like if really it is our choice or perspective that determines the experiences we have and will have. It seems to me that the loving God revealed in Christ not only loves the victim but the wrongdoer, so that there is both forgiveness and justice. Forgiving the wrongdoer without justice for the wrong would be tantamount to not loving the victim. That the wrongdoer simply gets the reality that they live out of doesn't really explain much to me in terms of the active justice of God for sin.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-42173561834521889172011-03-06T22:56:11.230+00:002011-03-06T22:56:11.230+00:00Tony, I hope that didn't sound like I was lobb...Tony, I hope that didn't sound like I was lobbing a grenade into the thread and running away - apologies if it did. In any case, I thought I'd add a link to a link that covers early Jewish/Christian and subsequent patristic commentary on heaven and hell that I hope is helpful for people:<br /><br />http://preachersinstitute.com/2009/11/03/heaven-hell-in-the-afterlife-according-to-the-bible-peter-chopelas/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-1157528294805444102011-03-05T19:14:31.163+00:002011-03-05T19:14:31.163+00:00anonymous: great comment!
Brett and Jon: thanks.anonymous: great comment!<br /><br />Brett and Jon: thanks.Tony Tantihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619319927519736211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-31077867389672503032011-03-05T16:53:27.387+00:002011-03-05T16:53:27.387+00:00What's frustrating about this sudden furor is ...What's frustrating about this sudden furor is that what is public about Bell's book appears to be essentially in line with patristic and Orthodox Christianity, whereas American fundamentalists seem unaware that they have a partly medieval and partly very modern view of hell. Christus Victor is the way to understand things indeed, but the roots of protestantism aren't deep enough to get there. The faith of the Apostles hasn't changed, it's still there waiting for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-35998231419216723872011-03-05T14:54:21.209+00:002011-03-05T14:54:21.209+00:00An important step in clarifying your beliefs is to...An important step in clarifying your beliefs is to talk about and even defend them. So the fact that the publicity campaign for Rob Bell’s book has provided an impetus for Christians to actually do theology (to figure out what they think about God) is a positive thing. Even if you disagree with Bell, it’s important for Christians to wrestle with what they believe. Another great resource on heaven, what it's like and who will be there is “Heaven Revealed” by Dr. Paul Enns, released this week by Moody Publishers. I recommend it. Here’s the amazon page: http://dld.bz/P8sz4grantednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-32049082002971717542011-03-03T10:08:44.686+00:002011-03-03T10:08:44.686+00:00My kids have mentioned things about Hell over the ...My kids have mentioned things about Hell over the past year or so. They've not asked very much, but enough to really make me think about what I think and what I want to say to them about it. I think I've landed on this - <br />There is a Heaven and a Hell. Every single person who will ever be in Heaven has Jesus Christ to thank for them being there. God is fair. God is wise. God is loving. God is the judge - it's up to Him. I am not going to judge who is going to end up where. I am going to trust Jesus and direct others to Him.<br />So - in a way, what I will be saying to my kids will be less clear-cut and defined than I was told as a child myself, but I've come to see that we can't tie every question up neatly. God knows.AWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-80010881960589427572011-03-03T08:03:22.978+00:002011-03-03T08:03:22.978+00:00thanks Brett, I'll have to check that out.
Ta...thanks Brett, I'll have to check that out.<br /><br />Tanti: Barth thought it was a Christian <i>duty</i> to <i>hope</i> for universal redemption, and a proud presumption against God's freedom to <i>expect</i> it.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-22933379297963511732011-03-03T06:27:34.316+00:002011-03-03T06:27:34.316+00:00One more thing. I found this recording of Rob Bel...One more thing. I found this recording of Rob Bell speaking on Hell. I've heard some of these thoughts before but it was nice to find it all in one place, and to hear from the man himself on what he thinks Jesus says about it.<br /><br />http://taddelay.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/rob-bell-jesus-wants-to-save-christians-iii-hell.mp3Brett https://www.blogger.com/profile/10632343649661747519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-9154799655829756552011-03-03T01:32:24.096+00:002011-03-03T01:32:24.096+00:00Tony: I agree. that is what I've been thinkin...Tony: I agree. that is what I've been thinking. <br /><br />Actually, with all of these people quoting verses to cut down Bell's video, I think that there is another verse to look at. 2 Peter 3:9<br /><br />"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."<br /><br />Not only is it what us Christian's should be hoping for, but it is the very hope of God, a patient God, whose heart desires that all will come to know him. God's desire, from the beginning, and continuing on in patience, is that all will know him, all will be in communion with him, that none would perish from sin and their own ways. This is what people need to hear. Scare tactics have no place in the presentation of the Gospel of Grace.Brett https://www.blogger.com/profile/10632343649661747519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-29169306730471778432011-03-02T22:49:40.029+00:002011-03-02T22:49:40.029+00:00Watched Bell's video and loved it. I have mor...Watched Bell's video and loved it. I have more of a problem with any Christian out there who isn't asking these questions.<br /><br />There may be difference of opinion on the answers but I'm so glad for your rebuke of this pre-judgment of Bell Jon.<br /><br />While it is encouraging to see so many people defending Bell (at least here) I'm still bothered by this whole thing. I've long been very confused by what I see as a common attitude in Christianity; that is the attitude that seems to want large numbers of people to go to hell. <br /><br />The narrower a person's view is on how to get to God the more people they are damning to hell. I don't get that. How does wanting billions of people to burn in hell line up with the life and teaching of Jesus Christ?<br /><br />I'm not saying I'm a universalist, I'm just saying that from what I know of Jesus I think his followers should probably hope for universalism, even if they don't believe in it.Tony Tantihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619319927519736211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-9333583071493556382011-03-02T21:31:07.716+00:002011-03-02T21:31:07.716+00:00What the Bell??? http://tinyurl.com/n63p82What the Bell??? http://tinyurl.com/n63p82Ross Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610849534284616756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-11004779590895503252011-03-02T16:45:27.638+00:002011-03-02T16:45:27.638+00:00Thanks for this Jon (and all respondents!) - I got...Thanks for this Jon (and all respondents!) - I got here via Maggi Dawn's blog (http://maggidawn.com/) and Paul Wilkinson's "Thinking Out Loud" (http://paulwilkinson.wordpress.com/).<br />I think Barth's letter is so helpful.<br />I can't help wondering if God's big enough for all this diversity or whether he needs to employ some fellow Christians to correct our unorthodoxy!<br /><br />When we stop asking the big questions, it's time to wonder if we've lapsed into complacency.<br /><br />I hope reading the book will bring us a lot more light on Bell's view - and perhaps some of the current heat will cool.Pete Sleenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-35769160665137445002011-03-02T00:09:31.467+00:002011-03-02T00:09:31.467+00:00Dear Jon
My husband and I had almost opposite resp...Dear Jon<br />My husband and I had almost opposite responses to Rob's video. I thought it was provocative and edgy as far as getting people to think about heaven and hell and our (sometimes) robotic responses based on ideas we may have learned as children while Mike felt that Rob had taken the wide road and pretty much dis-ed<br />orthodox Christianity. Doesn't God have a great sense of humor to put us in the same household? : )<br />Anyway I appreciate your thoughtful responses without the harshness I've seen on other blogs and websites.<br />I say at least read the man's book before you drag him through the mud.sewebb@bellsouth.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-52671137987454244672011-03-01T23:39:19.567+00:002011-03-01T23:39:19.567+00:00Good work Jon. I watched the video, read Kevin...Good work Jon. I watched the video, read Kevin's lame post and then yours. Maybe, hopefully, all this bruhaha will cause more people to read it and think through the issues thoughtfully.Geordiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08953309918444979354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-37214310496139207352011-03-01T20:56:22.234+00:002011-03-01T20:56:22.234+00:00I appreciate these comments. I have read a few sou...I appreciate these comments. I have read a few sources close to Barth that seem to say he was on the up and up, so I won't comment on his home life other than to say that it doesn't necessarily effect our assessment of the things he said about theology.<br /><br />As for Joshua's calling into question the provocative sales tactics in all of this, I'll paste a comment I made over at Conversant Life, where Kyle Strobel raised that point as well:<br /><br />"I've been so busy defending Bell that this has only been a sideline point for me. But you are absolutely right, and as far as pop theology goes this can not be a good trend. I already thought the "Christian" publication industry was a careless and dangerous one (ecclesiologically and theologically speaking), and this kind of provocative mode can't ultimately be good for Christian theology. The mode and content of theology both are witness. And we already have a charged atmosphere enough, it behooves us in Christ to at least seek and be open to reconciled views. Provocation may start conversations (or flat out controversy), but is it really intent on living from our union in Christ? Publishers may have no concern for this whatsoever. I'm never quite sure how much to blame the author?"<br /><br />Thanks again for your thoughts.Jon Couttshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728055140831842717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-39462084584170993972011-03-01T17:39:55.540+00:002011-03-01T17:39:55.540+00:00Joshua,
I am not wanting to contradict you, but w...Joshua, <br />I am not wanting to contradict you, but we should be willing to work out all aspects of our faith, including the parts we hold as "sacred", otherwise, in never allowing ourselves to ask questions or doubt, we may find that what we hold is in itself... nothing. <br />Even the term "the gospel" is one that has taken on a host of meanings, and in the bible, 4 books with very different slants and purposes are often given that title "the gospels". Figuring out exactly what the good news actually is about is something all of us should be doing.<br />I don't think the current fervor is helpful to anyone, but certainly asking the questions are very helpful, in the same way as reading authors and theologians of all different points of view (even the big ones we hold tightly) is helpful, it allows us all to wrestle with our own faith, and through that find a resurrected faith of our own. <br />ChrisPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09514153184705755180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-41798764908712400772011-03-01T17:36:23.104+00:002011-03-01T17:36:23.104+00:00Good point Ben. If Barth's untrustworthy becau...Good point Ben. If Barth's untrustworthy because he was sleeping with his secretary, not only would we have to look at MLK the same way, but also reject anything written by King David. That guy not only slept with another man's wife, he had the guy killed to cover it up! I guess we'll have to ditch half the Psalms, and either edit out the stories of his life or bracket them with big bold cautions not to be like this so-called "Man after God's own heart."Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18173351.post-67309624725556052342011-03-01T15:37:13.557+00:002011-03-01T15:37:13.557+00:00I agree that convicting Bell before we have had a ...I agree that convicting Bell before we have had a chance to read and ascertain his true intentions is rash. I do think that it's a pretty irresponsible presentation, on his part, though. There is plenty we can debate as Christians that does not cause this type of damage to the BIG church. I understand his questions were meant to be provocative and thought inspiring, but what really happens is he "seems" to push against the gospel. There is ONE sacred to me... the gospel. We should not play with it, tease others with it, or question the integrity of it. Jesus' blood pouring from Him, and the skin being torn from His back and face commands more respect. I'm not convicting of Rob Bell of heresy, I'm pretty convinced that he will provide a pretty decent presentation of the bible, in the book. We shouldn't sell souls to sell books or seats at our churches. I worked for a while with a seeker style church like Mr. Bell's. My issue became, nothing is sacred there. The model seems to act as though we can say anything we want for provocation sake, as long as we hit them with a little Jesus when they get here. It just seems irresponsible to the story of God who died on the cross for us. Rob may give the greatest gospel presentation ever, in Love Wins, but it will not remove the controversy that could have been avoided by maintaining the integrity of the gospel in his video.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07881610998995477787noreply@blogger.com